Don’t Let Podcast Industry Professionals Kill Your Vibes

When I was a little girl in second grade, I got in trouble for talking during class. Now, in retrospect, I’m sure that I was excited about something and I’m sure I was talking. But, that moment was huge for me because it was the first and last time I was punished in school. But, it would be the first or last time that I would get penalized for speaking. I remember that day because my name was put in the dog house, an actual dog house that was drawn on the chalkboard. The worst part? I wasn’t allowed to go out for recess as punishment. No play time for me. It was brutal for a little girl who’d never gotten in trouble before. While I’m sure that I deserved that punishment, that moment would be the first of many moments when I would be penalized for speaking.

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In fact, I had a colleague (I use the term loosely) who used to sigh and roll her eyes, clear her throat and ignore me for FIVE years whenever I spoke during meetings and she would ignore me when we passed each in the hallway. Sadly, I’ve spoken to other Black women with similar stories. I often wonder if podcasting has become so attractive to the Black community because it’s a way to be heard without being ignored. We can get our entire thoughts out, share our insights and expertise and chosen experts who validate whatever viewpoint or topic we’re discussing. From the Star Trek universe to racism in finance or traveling abroad.

So, what does all of this have to do with today’s podcast topic “Don’t Let Podcast Industry Professionals Kill Your Vibes?” Quite a bit. I’m going to share 3 problematic interactions that I had with industry professionals at the recent Podcast Movement Evolutions conference in Las Vegas, why I decided to share those interactions and a call to action.

Listen to the Episode

Related Posts

• Podcast Movement Evolutions 2023 Review

• How to Prepare for Podcast Movement Denver

• Afros and Audio Podcast Festival Review

• Podcast Movement Evolutions 2022 Review

• Podcast Movement 2021 Review

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Show Notes

Welcome to the Brand Building Lab, I’m your host Michelle Jackson and I help online entrepreneurs building kind online brands. There’s nothing better than getting paid while uplifting the communities that you serve online and not causing financial harm.

Edison Research released its 2022 Black Listener report. A whopping 43% of those surveyed listen to podcasts each month (and that number is growing). Black women listen to podcasts at a higher percentage on a monthly basis and my read on that is we tend to binge our content in-between managing personal obligations such as taking care of family, work, etc. There were several points of data that I found fascinating but two stuck out.

• 61% of Black podcast listeners will interact with a product advertised on a show OR refer it to other people in their circle (according to Edison Research)

• 75% of Black podcast listeners actively look for shows with Black hosts about the topics that they’re interested in. If you’re wondering if you should launch your show-do, it’s likely that there aren’t enough shows about the topic you would like to share.

Why is all of this important? Because I still feel like industry professionals haven’t gotten the memo about Black and Brown audiences, their value and growth within the industry. So, I thought I would share the three interactions that I had with industry professionals, share some context and what we need to think about moving forward as we navigate around this space.

I’ve also decided to not mention names or gender even though one interaction was recorded because it was during a panel discussion’s question and answer after a session. The interactions ranged from irritating, insulting to horrendous. With the last interaction being so bad that not one, not two, not three, not four but FIVE industry professionals came up to me later to let me know that they felt I’d been mistreated and shouldn’t have been talked to in the way that I was. Imagine how many other people thought the same thing and didn’t say anything?

I am sharing these interactions because of some broader implications that I thought it was important to be aware of in relation to those in power and how we can balance them out.

Interaction #1-Irritating

This interaction actually happened during a party. I was eating my weight in delicious food, sipping fantastic cocktails and just enjoying myself. Then, as one does, I began speaking to a couple of folks who were doing the same. We talked about a couple of different things when this person made an emphatic statement about how “a certain way to make money online was dead” I was like, I don’t believe that to be the case. They countered with basically, but I’m right and you’re wrong.

What was irritating about this interaction is that I see this type of complete belief that what someone believes is true (especially when talking about monetization) in podcasting groups ALL THE TIME. Every single day. If someone asks the questions “How do you make money podcasting? How do you price an ad partnership? Etc.” You’ll get people answering “Well, the CPM model.” Folks are often condescending and annoying vs. genuinely answering the person’s question or sharing resources. In this case, this person was smug and just excited to show me that they were right.

But, here’s the thing-the CPM model in-particular doesn’t work for smaller shows so we tend to be and have to be scrappy. So we approach monetization in different ways because we have to. What frustrates me about interactions with industry professionals and community members who believe they are right and that their way is the ONLY way is that crossing the path of one of these people can make someone doubt their strategy or focus.

Ironically, if they hadn’t been so annoying I would have been interested in learning more about the topic that they brought up. You don’t have to be the expert in every interaction. That’s why I bring in other people to Podcasters Getting Paid who know more than me. But, maybe they didn’t think that I would be that person who knows more than they did about something and maybe that subsconscious bias was what was being reflected in our interaction. By this person is typically very nice and maybe it was an off day for them.

Interaction #2-Insulting

I have been podcasting since around 2017 or 2018-It has been a minute. I’ve been nominated by my peers for awards and won 3. I’ve presented on various topics related to podcasting at the following events (in no particular order) Denver StartUp Week, OutlierFest, Podcast Movement, Afros and Audio and Podcast Movement Evolutions. I have more than one show in different niches. So, when a well known industry professional said that they were looking to refer qualified panelists to another industry professional who was rounding out a panel, I said I was interested. I only said that I was interested because I knew that I could lend some insight to that specific panel. The lead for that panel reach out to me and we set a time for a quick chat. Or, so I thought.

Instead, I ended up in what was basically a job interview to be on the panel. A 30 minute job interview. I was perfectly fine when the person said they listened to a couple of my episodes-totally made sense. I was fine when they asked me about myself. But, as the minutes ticked on and they were literally reviewing the website for that project and telling me what was wrong with it. I found myself wondering what their real agenda was because if it was to make me feel “little” that wasn’t going to happen. If it was to make me angry-they were successful. I knew that I could and would be a fabulous addition to their panel but it was clear that they doubted that I knew what I was talking about and in all the years that I’ve participated in panels I’d never had to do a job interview to be on one. At one point, this person asked if I’d spoken at a conference before and after I listed all of the times I had including that I would be speaking at the conference this panel would be presented at-they sounded surprised. I’m thinking, you’re surprised that I know enough to run my own session? After I hung up, I was so pissed off. I woosahhed and then shot over an email 10 minutes later. “Perhaps this isn’t the right time for me a panelist for your panel.” Because it was clear that person had no intention of picking me and they’d wasted my time. What was so insulting was that in order for me to be referred to them…I had to be vetted first. The person who referred me would never have done so if they’d felt I wasn’t up to it.

Interaction #3-Horrendous

Ironically, this interaction was recorded. So, if you watch the replay of that panel-you’ll know what I’m talking about immediately. Here’s the thing, I’ve presented at conferences. I’ve spoken on panels. I spoke that actual conference. You will have audience members who ask questions or make comments that you may not like. I said that I had a comment at the time we were allowed to make comments and I made it. Then the moderator went off on me. Weirdly, the comment I made was about the responsibility of podcasters related to the topic being discussed. Their reaction was crazy to me, I was shocked. It was completely out of line and innapropriate. Here’s the thing, if you have a question or comment that you dislike as a moderator or a panelist all you have to say is the following “Thank you so much for you comment.” That’s it. Literally, that’s it. In fact, it’s guaranteed that you’re likely to get a question or comment that you may dislike and you have to be prepared for those moments. As I mentioned at the top of this episode, not one, not two, not three, not four but FIVE different people came up to me afterwords and basically said that they were upset by how I was treated. In fact, two lovely attendees of faith asked if they could pray over me and it was so sweet because they were so appalled. All 5 of the folks were in industry professionals. The optics of this moment were really bad too.

Why Am I Talking About This?

When podcasters in underrepresented communities talk about the following:

• Lack of access
• Lack of respect
• Inability to gain funding for the their projects
• Disrespect

For once, I want you to think about the fact that there may be some truth to what they’re saying. I left that conference thinking about the fact that, if these folks were comfortable treating me in the way that they did TO MY FACE and IN FRONT OF OTHER PEOPLE…what were they like behind closed doors?

• When making hiring decisions

• Discussing the impact of certain types of content

• Working on budgets for programming

• Negotiating employee compensation

• Voting during awards shows

• General workplace decorum and behavior. Remember, I worked with someone in a different space unrelated to podcasting who sighed and rolled their eyes at me for 5 years. They would also pretend like they didn’t see me and refused to speak to me unless they had to. Yes, they ultimately got fired.

I bring these interactions up wonderful listeners to say that you need an action plan to deal with these folks are they will kill your dreams, momentum and belief in the work that you’re doing. Don’t let that happen. Know that people like this are lurking out there.

A Call to Action

Now that you know that there are people like this out there-it’s important to be prepared. Here are some actions that we can all take to manage these moments.

• Build community-I have a wonderful community of friends and acquaintances who very kindly listened to me talk about those different interactions. They talked me off the metaphorical ledge. Because I was really pissed off most of last week. But, by build community, I also mean create and nurture the spaces you want to be in and may be missing in podcasting.

• Set boundaries-Once that panel lead disrespected me, there was NO WAY that I would participate in that panel. No way. Which is why I declined to participate. They may have experienced it differently, but that was what was doing.

• Uplift the people/spaces/teams and organizations who aren’t shitty-I need to be clear there are so many amazing folks in the podcasting space. Uplift these people so that they can grow their projects and we can work with them. These are people who are on a daily basis treating people with dignity and respect.

• Be the person that you want to work with and be around in general.

It’s not lost on me that while there were 5 people who sought me out to make sure that I was ok, there were likely several others who didn’t say anything and were thinking “What the hell just happened?” I’m ok now but I do think about what if this had happened to someone else?

You need to be prepared for these moments when haters gonna hate. Be convinced of your worth or at least have a cheerleading section that can get you through these moments.

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